Talk:MIA05 - The Horror of Angels
=AUTHOR COMMENTARY= Chapter 1 The Horror of Angels. Okey dokey maties. Now that the MIA has come to a close I would like to reveal my intentions from the point of view of chapter one. (I wont provide any comments about the chapters thereafter). The horror of angels as it was meant by me was not an actual horror of angels. I.e. It wasn't about some terrible frightening angels. But the story was the horror of the people not realising something more greater than the simplicity of tedious mechanical life. It was about people who were not aware of things such as angels. To borrow from a fellow writer: "There are more things in heaven and earth... than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet Iv), and these people didn't realise it. They were blind to the possibility of enlightenment. It wasn't the Doctor's blindness leading to enlightenment but rather the tragedy of not attaining enlightenment. The story in my mind was set between "Nightshade" and "Love and War" and the story was to fore-shadow the Doctor commiting that tragedy of Ace and Jan. Of not realising that love was far greater than simple romance. The idea of angels came from basically watching Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. I love the scene where Juliet is on the balcony, there's fireworks in the night sky and she's wearing angel wings. What I imagined "The Horror of angels" to be would have shared much in common with "Romeo and Juliet" (which I just finished reading :-). In R+J the tragedy of "the continuince of their parents rage" and "the fearful passage of their death-marked love" is realised by the characters just missing out on understanding, heightened by Romeo's belief in Juliet's death. Mercutio has a discussion of this kind with Benvolio in Act III. These ideas are found with other things I mentioned: "Wings of Desire", "Three Colours: Blue" and (as far as I can work out) "Babylon 5". But there is also another kind of relationship than the human and angel, there's also the relationship between human (body/mind) and inner human (soul). Hence the "Twin Peaks" reference - people from another place inhabiting the bodies of people; Dusa Loka - Dusa means soul in Slovenian, and Luka is a Hindu idea of inner being or inner plane or something like that. Joseph finding that he was doing things without reason. There's the line about Berlin - "a city and a soul divided"; and of course there's the *inner* circle. There was another thread I wanted to put in chapter 1 and that was the story of six or so individuals who were not a part of the main plot. They were (going to be) there to illustrate the effect of the main plot on ordinary indivuals. '--Richard Prekodravac' : Whoops. : I thought I had it right with my idea of "not judging by appearances" sort of thing. Ah well. : As Becky Dowgiert puts it, "don't use a theme in an IA or MIA. It would just come back mauled." : Believe me, I know. My idea for "Time's Children" was significantly different than what turned up. : --Brad Trechak :: That's something all first chapter writers have to face. I have to say it was an exciting and interesting journey. :: '--Richard' ::: That's why I was so reluctant to let go of chaapter one of THE TERRIBLE ZODIN ... I even said so at the time. ::: --Paul Gadzikowski :::: However speaking as a second chapter person for THE TERRIBLE ZODIN I was really cautious and concered because I knew that whatever I did I would be trampling over Paul's ideas. Having done a chapter 2, I found it easier to let go of "The Horror of Angels". :::: '--Richard' The idea of having a story with a blind Doctor came after reading Kate Orman's "Sleepy" ( i.e. predates G'Kar in "Babylon 5"). As Dave said I think it would be a challenge to write for a blind Doctor. There's also the romantic idea of blindness leading to inner or universal perception or understanding kind of fascinates me at the moment. '--Richard' : >The idea of having a story with a blind Doctor came after reading Kate >Orman's "Sleepy"( i.e. predates G'Kar in "Babylon 5"). : Hmm. OK, sure...mybe I'll have to track that down someday. : >As Dave said I think it would be a challenge to write for a blind Doctor. : That's true. Course, you'd think that he'd have cobbled togeteher a guide K9 or something. : >There's also the romantic idea of blindness leading to inner or universal >perception or understanding kind of fascinates me at the moment. : Uh...Yuk. I can assure you that blindness leads to no such thing. Terribly cliche, but unlike most, it's not even close to being true. :-( Nope, no internal or universal peace and understanding here. Of course, the Doc is a very independent sort of fellow and likes to be the one in a position of power, be it superior knowledge or understanding, or whatever. After all, it's always the companion who has to ask "What's that?" and "I don't understand. How will we shut down the evil whatever and leave as heroes?" : It would certainly be a bit of a change to show the Doc having to rely on someone else for things sometimes. I think though, more than that, you could well have a really interesting psychological question going here. As I understand it, people who loose their vision later in life, of course, go through some amount of grieving, maybe not feeling quite together for a while, maybe believing they're not quite so good as a sighted person anymore. So you have the Doc dealing with this feeling that he's somehow not quite as good as a sighted person, and this would be a new and pretty darn uncomfortable feeling for anyone else, but I should think more so for the Doctor. It would be a tricky balance to pull off successfully, I think, learning that while sometimes you can't always be the leader, or I guess that you have to depend on others some of the time, that that doesn't mean you're any less for it. Right? There are certainly a lot of interesting questions that go along with someone newly blinded, all about attitudes and self-perception...now that would be interesting. : --Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV :: > >As Dave said I think it would be a challenge to write for a blind Doctor. > > That's true. Course, you'd think that he'd have cobbled togeteher a guide K9 or something. :: Actually, that's in ch. 3. He tried, but couldn't. :: --Allesandra Chapter 11 There are many tales of Ace's departure from the Doctor. In one, she > became a time-travelling defender of Earth. In another, she died. Is > this one any more or less valid than the others? One thing makes the Virgin version more valid than yours : I paid £4.99 for my copy of Set Piece and I don't want the investment to be invalidated. ;-p --JJF : And there are those that paid for the issue of DWM in which Ace died in the comic strip, as well as buying 'Set Piece'. So which one should fans who purchased both believe? : Personally, I believe that *all* of them are canon, including the MIA chapter I just wrote. :) : '--Brad' :: I suddenly have the feeling that I've missed something here which, as a member of the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Companions, I should have been objecting strenuously to... :: Anyway, the NAs have already been established as having occured in the Internet Adventure version (See Six Sides where they travel to the planet from Sky Pirates!) so you've just killed Ace twice in the same universe! :: --Alden Bates ::: Well, both "Inferno" and your own IA contribution, "Altered State" show that parallel universes/timelines exist within the Whoniverse. So all the different canons can exist simultaneously. The NAs happened in a timeline in which the Doctor didn't dump Ace off at Gallifrey. ::: Hmm, Ace on Gallifrey... Opens up ideas doesn't it? I'm thinking nitro9 and the polygonal Zero Room beneath the Panopticon. Anyone else have ideas for Ace's merry hijinks in the Capitol? ::: --Tyler Dion :::: Tyler, you read my mind! Anyone for a seperate 'CIA' regarding Ace's adventures among the snobby Time Lords, either totally seperate continuity, or until she would re-join the Virgin Whoniverse...? :::: --Becky "Seperate would be funner" Dowgiert :::: >Well, both "Inferno" and your own IA contribution, "Altered State" show >that parallel universes/timelines exist within the Whoniverse. So all the >different canons can exist simultaneously. The NAs happened in a timeline >in which the Doctor didn't dump Ace off at Gallifrey. :::: Oh, fair enough then. :::: >Hmm, Ace on Gallifrey... Opens up ideas doesn't it? I'm thinking nitro9 >and the polygonal Zero Room beneath the Panopticon. Anyone else have ideas >for Ace's merry hijinks in the Capitol? :::: Yes, but they involve mango sauce, and aren't suitable for this newsgroup. ;-) :::: --Alden Bates ::: > And there are those that paid for the issue of DWM in which Ace died in > the comic strip, as well as buying 'Set Piece'. So which one should > fans who purchased both believe? ::: For me, Set Piece - it cost a couple of quid more ;-) But then I regard the NAs as vaguely canon (I wouldn't deliberately contradict them myself, but I don't know them all well enuff to avoid doing it accidentally) and the DWM comic strip, to an extent, as fanfic. ::: > Personally, I believe that *all* of them are canon, including the MIA > chapter I just wrote. :) ::: Yers.. ;-) ::: --Will Howells :::> And there are those that paid for the issue of DWM in which Ace died in > the comic strip, as well as buying 'Set Piece'. So which one should > fans who purchased both believe? ::: Whichever they want; it's their money. ::: --JJF :>One thing makes the Virgin version more valid than yours : I paid £4.99 for >my copy of Set Piece and I don't want the investment to be invalidated. :It's okay, Lungbarrow already retcons this, Page 304. So that's okay. :Seriously, though, the IAs/CIAs/MIAs are a burgeoning body of work, and despite being written by a wide range of authors, manage to maintain a reasonably impressive degree of internal consistency - this always impresses me. :They are creating their own little space in continuity, and a mighty interesting and fun one at that. That said, it jars when people accidentally or deliberately create continuity which conflicts with Who in any other media (TV show, DWM strip, BBC books, whatever). By all means a new twist could be added to old events, a new spin on an old idea, whatever. But there is little or no point (in my mind) to setting out to negate the validity of another media for two reasons. Firstly, it's just petty, and secondly if it came to a fight, alt.drwho.creative has the least claim to being "official" of anything going. :That said, I wouldn't have a problem with the way Ace was treated if it was in any story other than a Round robin. :Guess I don't know what I'm trying to say. :But although I didn't like how Brad chose to end the story, I would defend to the hilt his right to end it any way he wanted. :--Alan Taylor :: No, no, no.... :: She married the Doctor and she died with him when it was her time to die, she married the Count and she lived in France and she attended Benny's wedding, and she was killed saving the Doctor's life... :: They're all true. That's the "open door" of Dr. Who fiction... :: --Allesandra :: Actually, technically, it retcons Lungbarrow, since I wrote the chapter after Lungbarrow was published. The line you mention was something to the effect of the Doctor telling Ace that his plan was to have her attend the academy and finding Ace has plans of her own. :: However, since there was no "official" television episode regarding her departure, you can believe what you want in terms of Ace's departure from the Doctor. ::'--Brad' ::> They are creating their own little space in continuity, and a > mighty interesting and fun one at that. That said, it jars when > people accidentally or deliberately create continuity which > conflicts with Who in any other media (TV show, DWM strip, BBC > books, whatever). By all means a new twist could be added to old > events, a new spin on an old idea, whatever. But there is little > or no point (in my mind) to setting out to negate the validity of > another media for two reasons. Firstly, it's just petty, and > secondly if it came to a fight, alt.drwho.creative has the least > claim to being "official" of anything going. ::I agree. Thankfully, if we really want then we can work Brad's ending into any continuity you care to name. The Doctor *must* have gone back for Ace; he didn't mention the Rani (Dimensions in Time), which would of course have been one of their more recent (and memorable) adventures if it had already happened. ::--JJF ::> That said, I wouldn't have a problem with the way Ace was > treated if it was in any story other than a Round robin. ::Why are the round-robins any less valid than any other Doctor Who story? Because they're written by fans, rather than commissioned authors? I must disagree. Personally, I think they're a tremendous testimony to Doctor Who. I'd like to see a bunch of Trek or Babylon 5 fans coordinate something as complex as this. Becky Dowgiert (and whomever might be helping her) is doing a phenomenal job. ::> Guess I don't know what I'm trying to say. ::I won't hold it against you. ;) ::> But although I didn't like how Brad chose to end the story, I > would defend to the hilt his right to end it any way he wanted. ::Thanks. Basically, I did the ending to the MIA for two reasons: ::1. To invalidate the idea that writers and fans must follow established continuity to the hilt. No good story should be sacrificed for the sake of continuity (or even bad story, for that matter. I didn't like the ending of my story either. I felt rushed in writing it. If I had thought ahead more, I probably would have written something better. But then, I'm a pretty bad writer to begin with ;). ::2. To cause controversy (and, judging by the responses, I think I've succeeded). ::By the way, the ending I wrote for "Horror of Angels" can easily be retconned. I'll let you figure out how. ;) ::--'Brad' :::If I might weigh in on this for just a moment? :::Both of these reasons smack of writing a story to further an agenda, rather than writing a story because it's a good story. That seems to me to be the wrong way to go about things. :::--Jon Blum ::::Frankly, your response smacks of paranoia. Why can't I have an agenda when writing? Most of the best stories of Who have some sort of agenda (social commentary of some sort. The Sunmakers, to name one). Some even have personal commentary (I recall someone mentioning that Terrance Dicks took a crack at the television movie in "The Eight Doctors"). Why can't I do something to that effect in a chapter of an MIA? Would it ruin the fun? ::::The only piece of the story I even implied an agenda in is the epilogue, which I sort of tacked on anyway, and I will happily retract if it upsets too many people. However, I did not feel that I sacrificed any piece of the story (which I put together as best I could) to further any agenda. ::::However, commentary is always appreciated and not taken personally. :) ::::'--Brad' ::::> Both of these reasons smack of writing a story to further an agenda, > rather than writing a story because it's a good story. That seems to me > to be the wrong way to go about things. ::::Hear, hear. Brad, I enjoyed the rest of your chapter of "Horror of Angels," but the ending had nothing to do with the rest of the story and didn't add anything to the story. It's pretty obvious you did it just to stir up controversy. Of course, anything goes in the MIA's, so you had every right to include it, but as keeper of the "IA Programme Guide", I'm going to consider your epilogue apocryphal since many of the other IA's and MIA's *do* include the NA's as cannon (including some direct references to Lungbarrow). ::::--Jeffery Beuck :::::I believe I mentioned this already. Yes, I tacked on the ending. It was intentional. I wanted people to be able to disregard the ending without losing the story coherency. Feel free to pretend it never happened. That's the point. :::::Cheers. :::::'--Brad' ::> They are creating their own little space in continuity, and a mighty > interesting and fun one at that. That said, it jars when people > accidentally or deliberately create continuity which conflicts with > Who in any other media (TV show, DWM strip, BBC books, whatever). ::Well it depends where you stand. I regard the Books as often jarring horribly with the TV series and as such I pay them very little attention when working out continuity. Additionally the audience for the books is minuscule compared with the series so most people won't even notice the conflict. I don't think the comic have ever even pretended to stick to the TV show. As for the Annuals, well do I need to say more? ::Who out there remembers Paul McGann as the Doctor now or Colin Baker for that matter. I would imagine most people who remember the show in the UK think of Tom as the Doctor. ::> all means a new twist could be added to old events, a new spin on an > old idea, whatever. But there is little or no point (in my mind) to > setting out to negate the validity of another media for two reasons. > Firstly, it's just petty, ::Some people would regard the series as going down hill in it's later years and are writing story's to suggest that there is something over the horizon other than question mark umbrellas and, "I knew what was going to happen all along Ace!" plots. ::Being petty dosn't come in to it. ::> and secondly if it came to a fight, > alt.drwho.creative has the least claim to being "official" of anything > going. ::Who wants to be official. Star Trek books are official but does that make them any better for keeping to continuity. I think if you asked a ST fan to list the points of conflict between the books and the TV show they would just laugh. Or say I don't read them. ::--John Carlson :::> Well it depends wher you stand. I regard the Books as often jarring > horribly with the TV series and as such I pay them very little attention > when working out continuity. > snip :::That's a valid point, and if you want to ignore the books, I'm not going to argue with you. There's a difference between ignoring them and setting out to trash them though. :::I'd ignore them if I thought that doing so would get in the way of a decent story. What I wouldn't do is take a decent story and add something that doesn't add anything to it except to get people's backs up. :::> Some people would regard the series as going down hill in it's later > years and are writing story's to suggest that there is something over > the horizon other than question mark umbrellas and, "I knew what was > going to happen all along Ace!" plots. > > Being petty doesn't come in to it. :::Not under those circumstances, no, I'll grant you. :::> Who wants to be official. Star Trek books are official but does that >make them any better for keeping to continuity. I think if you asked a >ST fan to list the points of conflict between the books and the TV show >they would just laugh. Or say I don't read them. :::Okay, this was my attempt to avoid the word "canon". Which is purely subjective. :::I believe that Brad Trechak also said... :::>1. To invalidate the idea that writers and fans must follow established >continuity to the hilt. No good story should be sacrificed for the sake >of continuity (or even bad story, for that matter. snip :::To which I agree wholeheartedly. :::>2. To cause controversy (and, judging by the responses, I think I've >succeeded). :::Which I look at, shrug, and think "why bother?" Just my views (again) and I'll probably shut up now, coz in the end it really is not very important at all.... :::--Alan Taylor :::> 1. To invalidate the idea that writers and fans must follow established > continuity to the hilt. No good story should be sacrificed for the sake > of continuity. :::Agreed. But surely no good story should be sacrificed for the sake of mucking up continuity, as well? :::--JJF ::::Agreed. However, as I wrote previously, I do not feel that the ending I wrote in any way made the story decline in quality. MIA and IA writers tend to try to follow Virgin and (probably) BBC continuity, and the question must be asked: why? Because they're there? If a television series of Doctor Who ever started up again, I guarantee that it would contradict established Virgin/BBC continuity in a New York minute. ::::Me? I prefer the "neither confirm nor deny" strategy. (Five seconds later, the Doctor's TARDIS rematerialized in front of Ace's path, and the Doctor stepped out, saying "Just kidding". Ace punched him in the jaw and rejoined him in the TARDIS.) ::::Nobody's perfect. ::::'--Brad' :::::> Agreed. However, as I wrote previously, I do not feel that the ending I> wrote in any way made the story decline in quality. :::::Hmmm... Personally, I don't feel that there was anything wrong with the idea of the Doctor dumping Ace at the end of the story. After all, the Doctor had had to rely on Ace while he was blind, and now he's got his sight back that would frighten him. Hence, it would be a very-Seventh-Doctor thing to do for him to leave Ace of Gallifrey. :::::However, you turned the epilogue into one big dig at continuity with the line "There are many tales of Ace's departure from the Doctor. In one, she became a time-travelling defender of Earth. In another, she died. Is this one any more or less valid that the others?" And then later you nailed thefinal nail into the chances of many people taking your epilogue as an integral part of the story with "To all those who follow Virgin continuity: Nyah." :::::> MIA and IA writers > tend to try to follow Virgin and (probably) BBC continuity, and the > question must be asked: why? Because they're there? :::::Why do we follow *any* continuity? Let's imagine in the next IA someone revealed that the Doctor was a human inventor from Milton Keynes who just happened to build a time machine in his back garden. There would be uproar. The let's say author's justification is that he doesn't follow the BBC continuity. :::::Would that be fair? :::::> If a television > series of Doctor Who ever started up again, I guarantee that it would > contradict established Virgin/BBC continuity in a New York minute. :::::Oh yes, even the television series is anything but one level continuity. However, I bet you it will never attempt to invalidate over 50 stories in one fell swoop! :::::> Me? I prefer the "neither confirm nor deny" strategy. > (Five seconds later, the Doctor's TARDIS rematerialized in front of > Ace's path, and the Doctor stepped out, saying "Just kidding". Ace > punched him in the jaw and rejoined him in the TARDIS.) :::::Ah, but your "There are many tales of Ace's departure..." line would look really dumb if you added this. :::::--JJF ::::::I never wanted anybody to take the epilogue as an integral part of the story. It was tacked on. I wanted people to be able to ignore it if they wanted to. It was done to note that fact that the IA/MIA writers don't *have* to follow NA/MA continuity. The only continuity they MIGHT be obligated to follow would be the television series (and, since the television series has contradicted itself at times, even that is questionable). ::::::> Why do we follow *any* continuity? Let's imagine in the next IA > someone revealed that the Doctor was a human inventor from Milton > Keynes who just happened to build a time machine in his back garden. > There would be uproar. The let's say author's justification is that ::::::> he doesn't follow the BBC continuity. ::::::> ::::::> Would that be fair? ::::::Actually, ironically, a story idea I once had was to reveal that the Doctor's history has been a complete and utter lie, in order to bring back the mystery of the character. ::::::And, yes, it would be fair. Said writer could only control one chapter of the story, and future writers, even if they have to use the next IA/MIA/whatever, could retcon the story or play with it as they please. Public domain, so to speak. ::::::> Oh yes, even the television series is anything but one level > continuity. However, I bet you it will never attempt to invalidate over > 50 stories in one fell swoop! ::::::Well, when I try to retcon the universe, I don't do it half-heartedly. ;) ::::::> Ah, but your "There are many tales of Ace's departure..." line would > look really dumb if you added this. ::::::Which is why I didn't. But if another IA writer wanted to, he/she could. ::::::However, the constructive criticism is appreciated. :) ::::::'--Brad' :::::::> ... The only continuity they MIGHT > be obligated to follow would be the television series (and, since the > television series has contradicted itself at times, even that is > questionable). :::::::A clear case of making a point spoiling what could have been an interesting ending... ah well, it was your chapter. :::::::> Actually, ironically, a story idea I once had was to reveal that the > Doctor's history has been a complete and utter lie, in order to bring > back the mystery of the character. > > And, yes, it would be fair. Said writer could only control one chapter > of the story, and future writers, even if they have to use the next > IA/MIA/whatever, could retcon the story or play with it as they please. > Public domain, so to speak. :::::::Okay, let's try this. The story so far in (the imaginary) IA73465 - the Eighth Doctor and his companion Sheila have landed on Earth in the England of the late-1980s, and found that the Mutant Mushrooms from Mercury ™ are planning to invade. At the climax of chapter 7, the Doctor reveals a strange machine... ::::::: ---* Begin Imaginary Story Chapter *--- :::::::IA73465 - The Return of the Mutant Mushrooms from Mercury ™ Chapter 8 - The Big Shock by Anne Idiot :::::::Sheila looked at the contraption, all flashing lights and glowing valves, seemingly held together by kilometres of green and yellow wiring. There was only one question, really: "Doc, what is this thing gonna do?" :::::::The Doctor frowned. "It's DocTOR, *the* DocTOR. Not Doc." :::::::"Sorry." :::::::"I should think so." All childish hurt, but suddenly the expression evaporated to be replaced by childlike glee. "And this machine is a long-frequency short-wavelength transmitter with a very large amplitude booster. I'm going to use it to supplant certain transmissions with those of our own." :::::::"Eh?" :::::::"I'm going to transmit on the BBC's airwaves. Everyone in the country watching the BBC will see and hear what I have to say. And, since several extraterrestrial lifeforms are monitoring the BBC's airwaves in this era, what I say will spread to all corners of the universe!" :::::::"And just what are you going to say?" :::::::"Wait and see, Sheila, wait and see..." The Doctor pressed a few buttons on the machine, sat before the camera, and began to speak... :::::::"My fellow living creatures; I am the Doctor. I'm sure you've all heard of me, but I'm equally sure that none of you know who I really am, where I really come from. My name is Doctor John Barnes, and I come from Milton Keynes. Yes, that's right, I'm not an alien, I'm just a human being like yourselves. :::::::"I was always an inventive child, and when I left school I started to work on what became The Project - to build a fully functional time machine. I quickly learned that space expands to accommodate the volume you put into it, and it was using this principle that my time machine was built. I won't bore you with the details, but after several years of hard work I finally had a functioning time machine - and as a bonus it would take me anywhere in Space as well!" :::::::The news spread like wildfire, to every continent of every world, to every orbitting and not-orbitting spacecraft. :::::::He's done it, they said, the Doctor has revealed his secret. :::::::The question is answered. The big question. Doctor... Who? :::::::Doctor John Barnes, that's Who. :::::::Now, as you would expect with a revelation so profound, some didn't believe it. :::::::Some thought the Doctor was lying, but they were wrong. :::::::Some thought the Doctor was possessed, or being controlled, but they were wrong. :::::::Some thought the Doctor had gone mad, but they were wrong. :::::::Some thought that the words had been spoken by a clone of the Doctor, or an android, but they were wrong. :::::::Some thought that the Doctor had been replaced by another Doctor from a parallel universe; some thought that *they* had been transported to a parallel universe. Both were wrong; because there is only one universe. :::::::Some people thought that it was a dream, but it was not. :::::::Some people thought that *they* had gone mad, but they had not. :::::::And Sheila thought that it was a ploy to trick the Mutant Mushrooms from Mercury ™. :::::::How wrong can you be, eh? :::::::TO BE CONTINUED! :::::::And to all those who follow the BBC continuity: Nyah. ::::::: ---* End Imaginary Story Chapter *--- :::::::Can anyone really say that this would be fair on the next author? :::::::--JJF.